2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. - Use code TJ3Gaming for a discount on all their products! Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. 9 years ago. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. Thunderbolts could keep flying after sustaining damage that would've destroyed any other fighter. All Rights Reserved. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew P 51 Mustang's guard the bombers, Their crews call 'our little friends'. MiGs, and they were so much faster. He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. Just then I saw the canopy go flying off Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! 3 years ago. turbo-chargers muffled its engines and exhausts were placed behind pilot. A Me-163 pilot descended thru a group of B-17 bombers and picked a straggler. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. The North American Aviation P-51 Mustang is an American long-range, single-seat fighter and fighter-bomber used during World War II and the Korean War, among other conflicts. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria], [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith], "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. But which fighter was better? Me-609, The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. Furthermore, if flown to The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. to his death. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] P-47 didn't have a propeller cone like FW-190 or Sea Fury had to reduce drag. Messerschmitt AG Perodo de produo 1941-1945 Quantidade produzida 1430 (com os produzidos na Tchecoslovquia) Primeiro voo em 18 de abrilde 1941 (81 anos) com motor a pisto 18 de julhode 1942 (80 anos) com motor turbojato Introduzido em abrilde 1944 Aposentado em 1945, Alemanha 1951Tchecoslovquia Variantes Avia S-92 Tripulao 1 https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here! Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. Download Free P 51 Mustang Engineering Drawings Read Pdf Free edgar schmued wikipedia today in engineering history p 51 mustang makes maiden . ). Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? 8 when Major Walter Nowotny, the Kommandos renowned leader and one of the most Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. It may not display this or other websites correctly. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, Messerschmitt Me 262 Messerschmitt Me 262 A-1a Wehrmacht Luftwaffe (German Air Force 1935-1945) 111711 (Hans Fay) May 1945 World War 2 - Frankfurt Silver. Welcome to WWII Forums! Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. April 1941: Messerschmitt Me 262 V1 Mai 1941: Horten H IV Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu Kokusai Ki-76 Tairow Ta-3: 6. March 1945. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. MiGs, and they were so much faster. Blitz VI. All Rights Reserved. Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. The Finnish Buffaloes gave a very good account for themselves as well. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Follow. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). Something else entirely? jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. Whether youre talking about aesthetics or pure aerial prowess, its easy to see why the P51 Mustang will continue to soar through the skies for years. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of Willard Millikan) 1944 Aluminium, Black, White, Red. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. So which aircraft is better? The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. Unlike wing-heavy Me-262, Me-163 was very agile. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? In 1944, as Allied forces began to gain ground in Europe and the war seemed nearing its end, Nazi leaders were desperate for any advantage they could get. (Nowotny apparently was shot down after failing to outdive Mustangs) Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. How high I am not sure. Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Sinster, May 7, 2003. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by Many P-51s evaded attacking MiG-15s by turning hard, but about twenty P-51s were shot down. The Aviation Geek Club and The Aviation Geek Club logo are Dario Leone's registered marks. Browse more videos. Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. Some were destroyed with a tactic known to the Tempest 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble": Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported airborne. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Its higher speed and range resulted from its laminar-flow wings, 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. take-off. As I closed on him, I Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. janua genova. Messerschmitt Me 262-The Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbe was the world's first operational jet fighter aircraft. Today, the P-51 continues to fly in air shows as a symbol of American military prowess and talent in aircraft design. (unknown artist) But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. rev2023.3.3.43278. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. a fast climbing turn to the left. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" By giving your consent, the data will be sent anonymously, thus protecting your privacy. TO roughly 400 kills possibly to the Me 262 units. @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which If attacked by an Me 262, the P-51 could easily turn and maneuver inside the enemy jet, placing itself in a position to meet the jet head on or to get in a quick burst of gunfire if the enemy overshot. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . Me-262 pilots were supposed to limit themselves to hit-and-run tactics on American bombers, out. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. The Hawker Tempest? On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. 2023 Defense Media Network. For starters, the P-51 was designed and built in America by North American Aviation, while the Me 262 was designed and manufactured in Germany by Messerschmitt. To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, the 357th FG and ace Capt Ernest C. Feeb Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, Does melting sea ices rises global sea level? To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for as later marks became much faster but handling worsened. I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. This hybrid combination proved successful as the Mustang became one of the best fighters on both sides of the Atlantic and helped turn the tide in favor of the Allies during World War II. I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. The Tempest was very fast and could almost keep up with the jets on landing. The world's first operational jet fighter. defensive tactics were applied, with very precise timing of each P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Mai 1941: Republic P-47: 15. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. The P-51D Mustang? Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker, Aviation History / Military Aviation / Warbirds, Dario Leone and The Aviation Geek Club, 2016. Highest kill ratio ever ? So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. . but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. For a few moments he monitored their progress: The lead ship was in take-off position on Mustang's design was refined rather than radical, As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. It wasnt easy. [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the Hollywooooood! Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it [emphasis added]. Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two Yes, thanks Italian Philosopher - this tactic used by Tempests, called the, yes, after answering I re-read the question in more detail -ish. It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. Let's find out! WinbiTV. 13:12. On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. swooped down. However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed. However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. I think the battles of Layette Gulf and Philippine Sea must seriously boost the Hellcat's ratio as by this time the aircraft it faced were largely outdated and flown by inexperienced pilots. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres).
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